The Hidden Health Crisis in America: Beyond the Empty Stomachs

In this episode, we dive into the critical issue of food insecurity with Katie Hilliard, Director of Healthcare Partnerships at Homestyle Direct. Katie breaks down the complex concepts of food swamps and food deserts, explaining how these environments impact access to nutritious food and, consequently, overall health.

We explore the startling statistic that 1 in 7 Americans faces food insecurity, and discuss how this issue extends beyond mere hunger to encompass the quality and accessibility of food. Katie shares eye-opening examples from urban Detroit and rural Nevada, illustrating the stark realities of limited food access in different settings.

The conversation then turns to the health implications of food insecurity, with a focus on chronic diseases like diabetes, heart disease, and hypertension. We also delve into potential solutions, including medically tailored meal programs covered by Medicaid, and the importance of education in addressing this multifaceted problem.

Visit: Homestyle Direct

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Transcript

Darleen Mahoney [0:02 - 0:29]: And today we are joined by Katie Hilliard. She is the director of Healthcare Partnerships at Homestyle Direct, where she focuses on building collaboration that improve health outcomes through medically tailored meals and nutrition support. Katie is also a registered and licensed dietitian, bringing a deep understanding of nutrition, nutrition's role in health and healing. Healing. Thank you so much for joining us today, Katie. 

Katie Hilliard [0:29 - 0:32]: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. 

Darleen Mahoney [0:32 - 0:54]: I'm excited to have you join as well. One of the things that we're going to talk about, the main topic today, I think, is going to be something that people really don't understand. So we're going to hopefully, hopefully the goal is to bring some clarity around the term food insecurity, the definition, and if you don't know what that means, we're going to explain it all today, right? 

Katie Hilliard [0:55 - 0:57]: Yes. I'm really excited to dive in and unpack what that means. 

Darleen Mahoney [0:58 - 1:08]: Okay, so jumping off the deep end, what is the definition of food insecurity for the layperson? 

Katie Hilliard [1:08 - 2:01]: Yes. So food insecurity, according to the fda, is if you don't have access to food, the ability to cook food, safe food, or the right or nutritious foods that support your health. So oftentimes we think about food insecurity being, oh, I just don't have enough food. But that's not always the case. Sometimes there is enough food from a quantitative perspective. There's enough calories in it, but is it the right foods to support your health? Do you have clean water in order to cook the food? Can you cook the food? Do you have the right utensils? So there's a lot more that goes into food insecurity. And. And people might be surprised to know that the most recent data that we have from the USDA is that just under 14% of Americans, about 1 in 7 are considered food insecure. 

Darleen Mahoney [2:02 - 2:05]: Okay. And that runs the gamut of just what you described. 

Katie Hilliard [2:05 - 2:30]: Yes. And they do break it down to even very low food security, which would be more of what we stereotypically think being like, food is running out, there's no money in order to buy food, or we're eating smaller portions in order to make food last longer. And that's about 5% included in that. Thirteen and a half percent of people who are struggling with food insecurity. 

Darleen Mahoney [2:30 - 2:52]: Yeah. So I think people, when they kind of think about that, they think it's just about hunger, but it's not. Because there can be some people that could be perceived as having actually weight issues, being, you know, Overweight that actually are food insecure because they're, they're eating, they're not eating things that are healthy for their bodies? 

Katie Hilliard [2:53 - 3:51]: Yes. I'm so glad that you brought this up because there is this perception that food insecurity often yields the, the thin person, the person looking malnourished because they're not getting enough to eat. But the reality is food insecurity and does not discriminate against your body size and oftentimes does lead to a larger body because it's about food quality. So we have food deserts, we have food swamps, which I'm happy to expand on what those kind of entail because they really do play into food insecurity within our country. But let's say you live in a food desert or a food swamp. You might have access to foods, but are they the right foods that are going to support your health, support you from a metabolic perspective, an energy perspective, physical and mental perspective? If the answer is no, then you can still be food insecure and living in a larger body or a body that could be perceived as very well nourished, even though it's not right. 

Darleen Mahoney [3:51 - 3:56]: So let's break it down. So a food swamp is what food. 

Katie Hilliard [3:56 - 4:34]: Swamp is where there is access to food but not health, health promoting foods. So maybe we've got a lot of packaged foods, a lot of processed foods, gas stations and you know, quick marts that are going to have access to food. So food is present, but it's not the food that's going to be nourishing. We don't have the fresh fruits and vegetables. We're not having access to the whole grains, to the lean proteins. Those don't exist. It's more of those ultra processed foods that are available. That's often what leads to health challenges and people existing in larger bodies even though they're still considered food insecure. 

Darleen Mahoney [4:35 - 5:03]: So let me ask you this question. So when you're referring to that, are you referring to that those foods are not physically available or they are not physically affordable to the person in those areas? Specific areas. Um, it's the people that are living there are not able to afford to access the healthier foods. So the, the packaged foods and those types of things are what they're buying just because they're less expensive? 

Katie Hilliard [5:04 - 5:50]: So that's such a good question, a really good distinction. Food swamp would be that those foods just aren't available. So the nearest grocery store, for example, is, you know, miles and miles away. It's not local. We, it still could play into food insecurity so someone can be food insecure and have a grocery store right down the road, but they don't have the money to purchase that. That wouldn't necessarily mean that they're living in a food desert or a food swamp. They can still be food insecure, but a food swamp or a food desert would be that those foods are not there. They don't have access to the fresh fruits and veggies either because grocery stores are far away or transportation or the stores that they have just don't carry them. 

Darleen Mahoney [5:51 - 5:55]: So that would probably be most likely in more rural areas. Typically you would. 

Katie Hilliard [5:56 - 6:35]: Exactly. We think rural, but we can also think very urban. Like I did my internship in downtown Detroit. Literally a couple, couple exits off of 8 Mile and Detroit will be considered a food desert, or I should say actually a food swamp because they have gas stations, they have quick marts, but the nearest grocery store that's going to have fresh fruits and veggies and produce is very far away. People would have to take the bus or car and it's not very accessible. So it is rural, but it's also some of our very inner cities that would be considered food deserts and food swamps as well. 

Darleen Mahoney [6:36 - 7:22]: Yeah, I get that. I've been to Detroit as well. My son used to live there. And there's so many incredible restaurants and places to go and things like that. And there are no grocery stores in that downtown area, which is incredible because I know some cities have some of those grocery stores that are at the bottoms of even like big condos or apartment complexes. But I think a lot of that specific, some of the more urban, especially if they're older, they don't have those new constructions that can maybe facilitate a large grocery store. So. Yeah, so you would really have to find like maybe a small food mart that may have just a few options. And those food marts are expensive, if you can find one. 

Katie Hilliard [7:23 - 7:33]: Yes, exactly. So now we're running into the issue of, okay, so the food is there, but is it accessible? Do they have the money, do they have the funds in order to purchase it? 

Darleen Mahoney [7:33 - 7:49]: Yeah, and it's specialized. They're usually more like of a gourmet type of thing. It's just a little bit. It's going to be a little bit pricier. You're going to be able to maybe get some wine and cheese and those types of things because it's going to be a little bit more targeted towards that type of client customer. So. 

Katie Hilliard [7:49 - 8:12]: Yeah, yeah, correct, correct, exactly. And oftentimes individuals who are living in either those inner cities or rural. You know, they have different cultural or ethnic preferences and that's something that comes into play too. You know, maybe they're not used to seeing the fruits and veggies that are standard here. And so there's also that hesitation of like, is this a healthy food? I don't know. 

Darleen Mahoney [8:12 - 8:20]: Right, exactly, exactly. So we just talked about the food swamps. So let's talk about the food desert. 

Katie Hilliard [8:21 - 8:58]: So food desert takes it even further. In the food swamp there's at least access to foods, but it's not those health promoting foods. Food desert, there's really no access to food. So maybe it is a grocery store or, excuse me, a gas station or a 711 that's available and, and that's it. So your choices are the honey bun or the hot dog on the roller and that's really the access to food that's available within that area. So food desert is the extreme. There's no fruits and veggies. There's not even a ton of ultra processed foods because the options of food is just so narrow, so limited. 

Darleen Mahoney [8:59 - 10:09]: Yeah. I was visiting Vegas several years ago and I can remember we left Vegas, which is a metropolis for everything under the sun, to go visit the Grand Canyon. And, and the drive out there we went through these like little tiny towns with, and I don't know how people lived out there cause there's just no, there's not a lot of tree coverage. It's just, it's, it's deserts. But people are living there in small communities. And there was no shops, there was no grocery stores. There was not even a 7 11. It was, I don't even know what they were doing for supplies. I mean, and it's, and it's an hour and a half to two hours or whatever to get to, you know, the land of, you know, things to buy. I mean I just, and it's not suburbia either. I mean, I don't even know. It's not like you're going to hit up a Target or like a main grocery store. It really is just something totally different. And it's small and it's, it's going to be a small community little grocery store that you're going to have access to. So that, is that something that you're kind of, I mean, does that sound like what I'm talking about? 

Katie Hilliard [10:10 - 10:15]: Yes, exactly. And it's funny you mentioned Las Vegas. That's actually where I reside, is in Las Vegas. 

Darleen Mahoney [10:15 - 10:16]: Oh, wow. Okay. 

Katie Hilliard [10:17 - 11:04]: Yeah. And so I'll, in my, in my work, I'll often drive out to These more rural areas. And you're right, we're, we're driving out there and there is nothing, not even a gas station, maybe a pump, but there's not like a little store attached to it. It's literally just get your gas, that's it. So these individuals who are living out there, they either have to drive in to the larger city into Vegas proper, or we have a couple of smaller cities that are suburbia in the area, but it's far. So do they have access to a car? Do they have money for gas? How expensive is it? Are the foods going to even make it? The drive home, you can't really have anything perishable. It gets to 120 out here in the desert. So you are correct, that would be a food desert. Absolutely. 

Darleen Mahoney [11:05 - 11:21]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because that's a long drive. And you're right, you would have to pack like a freezer type thing in your car. But you would think, man, if I'm going to do that, I'm going to find myself a Sam's Club or a Costco or. Because you have to pack it up. 

Katie Hilliard [11:22 - 11:32]: Exactly. And then how frequently are they able to get out here? Does that food run out before they're able to restock? Those are all the things that play into food insecurity. 

Darleen Mahoney [11:32 - 11:33]: And where do you store it? 

Katie Hilliard [11:34 - 12:10]: Yes, where do you store it? Yeah, most of the time safe storage is an issue. Freezer space is an issue. Refrigerator space is an issue. So even if maybe there's access to those foods that are freezer refrigerated, maybe they're defaulting to the more ultra processed shelf stable food because that's what's going to last them the month. That's what's going to last them from a money perspective and stretch it further. So there's a lot of things that play into that access. It's not just are there grocery stores, but it is also are there grocery stores? 

Darleen Mahoney [12:10 - 12:41]: Yeah, no, absolutely. Oh my gracious. I just can't even imagine. I just, you know, even driving through there, I was just like, I can't imagine living out here where there's, it's just desert. But there, there are communities and that's how they live. So it's always interesting to see, you know, different, how different people live and how that's their life. And it's, you know, when you're sitting here in suburbia, soccer mom world or whatever the case may be, there's always different lifestyles for everyone. 

Katie Hilliard [12:42 - 12:42]: So. 

Darleen Mahoney [12:43 - 12:55]: So we've covered a little bit of the two different types of the swamps and the deserts. And the deserts, literally, as we just referred, you know, literally going over deserts. 

Katie Hilliard [12:55 - 12:56]: Yes. 

Darleen Mahoney [12:57 - 13:09]: So how do those two affect. So if they're not getting enough calories, or maybe they're getting too many calories, they're just the wrong calories, Correct? 

Katie Hilliard [13:09 - 14:25]: Yes, it can be both. So food insecurity can kind of manifest in both ways. Either not enough calories. So now we're looking at an underweight, malnourished individual. And I'd like to just define malnourishment for a moment because it's often thought of as the really frail, really thin individual. Malnourishment just means poor nutrition. So it can be applied to any body size. Someone in a larger body can be considered malnourished if they're not having the adequate protein intake. Maybe their body composition is higher fat, lower muscle mass. So malnutrition is just kind of a general term, but it can be either poor, not enough intake of calories, or too many calories and not enough micronutrients, vitamins, minerals, the balance of carbs, fats and proteins. And now we're having health issues. Chronic disease, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, renal disease. That complicates nutrition needs even more because now what was generally considered healthy is no longer considered healthy or appropriate because we have to consider these medical conditions. And so food access and food security becomes even more challenging. 

Darleen Mahoney [14:26 - 14:35]: Okay, so once these folks are experiencing these, these issues, it can lead to chronic illness. 

Katie Hilliard [14:36 - 14:56]: Yes, there's actually a link between food insecurity and increased risk of developing a chronic disease. And so we already are seeing chronic disease as a challenge within our country. Tack on the 18 million individuals who are struggling with food insecurity. It just increases their risk of having one or more chronic diseases. 

Darleen Mahoney [14:57 - 15:08]: Okay, so what are some of the chronic diseases that are generated or come from food insecurity or long term food insecurity, if that's not addressed? 

Katie Hilliard [15:10 - 16:56]: Such a good question, and I would say diabetes is the first one simply because both pieces are going to influence it. Either too many calories and not enough of the right foods and too little calories. Because what diabetes is is it's an inability of your body to use insulin effectively. So if an individual is going too long without eating, that's going to impact blood sugar management, that's going to impact our insulin sensitivity, that can lead to diabetes if they're over consuming, because maybe this is the one meal they get in a day, or it's a high calorie, ultra processed food. That's all that's shelf stable and available to them. That's going to lead to diabetes as well because that's going to spike blood sugar. The more often they spike blood sugar, the harder it is for the body to have that insulin sensitivity and bring blood sugar down. So now we're dealing with diabetes, which can lead to neuropathy, which is the, the tingling or the poor sensation in fingers, toes. You think about diabetes related amputations, that's because of neuropathy. So it really can spiral very quickly. Heart disease and hypertension, high blood pressure. A lot of these shelf stable foods are high in sodium. They have to be in order to be safe from a shelf stable perspective. But now we're raising blood pressure because we're over consuming sodium. Blood pressure and diabetes are the two leading causes of renal failure. So now we're having kidney issues and the need for medical care, the strain on the individual. From a quality of life perspective, it just multiplies. And so food insecurity really can snowball all of these challenges from a health perspective. 

Darleen Mahoney [16:56 - 17:04]: Yeah. So really jumping in on these food insecurities can avoid a lot of these issues. 

Katie Hilliard [17:05 - 17:10]: Yes. If we're able to improve food security, we can minimize chronic disease in this country. 

Darleen Mahoney [17:10 - 18:01]: Right. So I think, I think, and maybe it's just my misconception or maybe it's just because I've started doing these and now I'm like just a lot more aware. I feel like this is something that just has really come to light as far as really something that as a whole this country's really started paying attention to. Probably just like in the last five to 10 years or maybe I'm mistaken. I really don't think it was something that was really addressed that there's the cause and effect and then actually the effect of it. It's less expensive as a whole to address the food insecurity right away. It's going to save money on the health care, you know, as far as like the costs on the healthcare system that it has on the long run. If you address it on the upfront and then you have healthier Americans anyway. 

Katie Hilliard [18:02 - 18:33]: Absolutely. You hit the nail on the head. I do think we've seen it more so in the forefront over the last five to 10 years as we're realizing the opportunity for prevention. Oftentimes we're trying to play catch up and it's already too late. Now they've developed the diseases, now we have to manage them. And if we really can prevent by increasing access to not just food but the right foods, we can Save, you know, money from a health care perspective, but then also just quality of life improvement. 

Darleen Mahoney [18:33 - 18:51]: Right. Which is the number one. I mean, you really want quality of life, and if you can, if you can do that through food. But a lot of it has to be education, so it really has to be educating people so that they have an understanding. Because, I mean, we're going to be really frank and honest. A bag of chips is so much tastier than a bag of broccoli. 

Katie Hilliard [18:51 - 19:47]: Absolutely. I think there's, you know, as a dietitian, there's a lot of things that go into that. It's. I jokingly say, you know, I don't, I don't really have to teach people that fruits and veggies are healthy for you. Most people know that. But it's. How can we incorporate it in a way that is palatable, that is enjoyable, still supports your health, and we can make that accessible to individuals because there is hyper palatability where our palate can change. If all you're used to consuming is over salted foods, high added sugar foods, that's what you're going to prefer. So if we can create that education, you know, we can, we can start to shift the narrative. But the other thing too is from an education perspective is like what to do with the foods. We could drop a box of, you know, fresh fruits and veggies, just produce on the doorstep of some of these individuals. What are they going to do with it? 

Darleen Mahoney [19:47 - 19:48]: Right. 

Katie Hilliard [19:48 - 19:55]: Do they know how to cook it and prepare it? Do they even know what the, what the food is? So lots of different education pieces there for sure. 

Darleen Mahoney [19:56 - 21:02]: Yeah, I know. One thing that I do, and this is just for me is part of my issue is just the ease of grabbing something. Right. Because chips, you can open the bag, you're good to go. Crackers, you know, sandwich crackers, good to go. There's so many. The stuff that's really bad for you is packaged for ease. I mean, it's super easy. Everything is super easy. Right? Even frozen food, that's not great for you. I mean, it's already cooked, it's ready to go, you just have to heat it up, you're ready to rock and roll. So I think it's finding things that are easy, just like that, that are healthy for you. So finding some of those little tricks. One of the things that I started doing is I started buying like the little fruit and veggie party trays from the grocery store. They're like seven bucks and I can literally for three days have fruit and veggies for lunch and snack on those and then have yogurt and it's like a perfect lunch and it's grab and go. I don't have to go make a sandwich. I don't have to go do any of those things. And it's healthy. 

Katie Hilliard [21:03 - 21:19]: That's one of my favorite tricks, actually. So I love that you mentioned that is getting those fruit and veggie party trays, because it is. It's easy, it's accessible, it's, you know, quick. You can just grab and go. So it plays into convenience. You know, the hope is that we can have those things more accessible to individuals. 

Darleen Mahoney [21:19 - 21:19]: Right. 

Katie Hilliard [21:20 - 22:15]: And, you know, in like the rural parts of Nevada that doesn't have access. But the one thing from an education piece I do want to touch on is frozen. So frozen fruits and vegetables, because they tend to be more accessible from a price perspective, they actually can be more nutritious than fresh because of the process of freezing. You deep freeze them, you lock in the nutrition. Fresh fruits and veggies are on a train, on a bus, wherever, or a truck getting to the grocery store. They lose out on nutrients as they're ripening. And so there's oftentimes this connotation that frozen is always bad. But fret or excuse me, frozen can be more nutritious than fresh and play a really important role. So I always like to say don't discount frozen fruits and veggies As a country that doesn't eat enough fruits and veggies, period, I don't really care how you're getting them as long as you're getting them. 

Darleen Mahoney [22:15 - 22:56]: Yeah, no, that's a great idea too. I didn't even think about that. So, yeah, for sure. Just getting those into your home. So I know that one of the things that Homestyle Direct does, because I do want to mention this, this is something we've partnered with you guys, you know, here@seniorlivingguide.com on the podcast, because you provide such an incredible service to seniors. And anyone that really kind of, I guess, needs it from a medical standpoint are medically tailored meals. And one of the things that you do provide is our meals that go directly to your home. So as far as like the food swamps and the food deserts, that's something that you can actually accommodate? 

Katie Hilliard [22:57 - 23:36]: Yes, absolutely. It's one of the things that I think I'm most passionate about is being able to get that access into those food deserts and those food swamps. So the home delivered meal program, it differs by state, but it's covered by Medicaid and usually it's under home and community based services. So individuals who meet specific qualifications have access to foods that are the right foods for their medical condition and it's delivered directly to their doorstep, no matter how rural or how urban they're located. That's one of the coolest things, is that we can get healthful and health promoting foods to the doorsteps of individuals who would otherwise not have access. 

Darleen Mahoney [23:37 - 24:06]: Yeah, that's the good thing about the medically tailored meals that you can order directly. I don't think that a lot of people now there's other services that offer it. We just really partner with you guys. We just love your passion, the passion of everyone that I've ever spoke to and worked within your company. So we like it that you're able to share this information with our listeners. Because there are options through Medicaid so that it doesn't come out of pocket for those that don't have the financial ability to pay for it. 

Katie Hilliard [24:07 - 24:35]: Right. It's an at no cost to the individual program. So oftentimes it's through waiver programs or through state Medicaid or directly through the Medicaid health plan. So it is individualized per state. But there's a lot of opportunity and I think one of the biggest things is just educating that this is even a program that's offered, you know, ask your, ask your health plan, ask your case manager because you might be eligible to receive meals directly to your doorstep. 

Darleen Mahoney [24:35 - 25:34]: Yeah. And that's why we talk about this, because we, we don't know how much our seniors and their families and their caregivers know that. They may not even realize that they are considered food insecure. They may not even understand that. So it's educating them and say, hey listen, you know, I don't have excess to this food I am struggling with. Maybe I am pre diabetic or you know, I'm having some high blood pressure issues or I'm at risk for that. Especially if you have like any family history, anything like that, it's, you know, definitely a possibility. Let me check into this so that I can avoid these issues later in life. Because if, if Medicaid is dealing with them on the upfront, they're not going to have to deal with so many issues later that are going to be even more expensive. So they're looking Medicaid from a fiscally responsible perspective. I'm imagining. 

Katie Hilliard [25:35 - 26:08]: Yes. I mean there's been several studies that have found, you know, medically tailored home delivered meals can prevent hospitalizations Minimize ER visits, reduce the risk of needing after hospital visit care like a skilled nursing facility or a long term, you know, acute care rehab. There's so many benefits from the fiscal piece and, you know, as we mentioned from the quality of life piece, but Medicaid is very interested in that preventative piece too. Too. Any way that we can save lives and save money. Absolutely. 

Darleen Mahoney [26:09 - 26:28]: Yeah. And we really are interested in happier and healthier seniors and their families for us. I mean, we just really want that higher quality of life for them, to be honest. So. And if they're healthy, that provides that. And if they're eating, eating well and eating nutritiously, that's a big key. 

Katie Hilliard [26:29 - 26:38]: Absolutely. Eating is such a challenge as we age anyways. If there's anything we can do to simplify that and improve the health while we're at it. Here for it. 

Darleen Mahoney [26:38 - 26:55]: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So is there anything that we didn't really cover as far as like addressing what food insecurity is and then what any of those types of things? Is there anything that we didn't cover that you think that we should touch on? 

Katie Hilliard [26:55 - 27:31]: I think the biggest thing that I'll just reiterate is that food insecurity is not just lack of access to food, it's the types of food. Do you have access to cook food? Can you safely store food? So if you're thinking, well, I can go buy food, I've got a grocery store down the street. That doesn't necessarily mean that you have food security. If you're ever wondering or questioning, I don't know if the food I have is going to make it to the end of the month. Am I going to have money coming in in time in order to buy more groceries? You know, all of those things indicate food insecurity and reach out about these programs because you might be eligible. 

Darleen Mahoney [27:32 - 27:35]: Yeah, no, that's perfect. I really appreciate that. Thank you for sharing that with us. 

Katie Hilliard [27:36 - 27:37]: Absolutely. 

Darleen Mahoney [27:37 - 27:42]: And we really do want our listener listeners. If you want to check out Homestyle direct, what's the URL? 

Katie Hilliard [27:43 - 27:54]: It is homestyledirect.com just www.homestyledirect.com and we have a ton of resources on there for individuals. You can look at our menu and see all the options that we have available. 

Darleen Mahoney [27:54 - 27:56]: And it's yummy. 

Katie Hilliard [27:56 - 28:02]: It's. I eat them for lunch. So I'm a little. I will say they're, they're good. They're very good. 

Darleen Mahoney [28:02 - 28:06]: So there you go. That's even easier than going and getting my little veggie tray. 

Katie Hilliard [28:06 - 28:09]: So it is. It is. 

Darleen Mahoney [28:10 - 28:43]: Oh, my goodness. Well, thank you so much. I really, really appreciate you joining us today. This was such a great chat and I'm glad that we could really deep dive into food insecurity. I've been hearing it for years and years, and I'll be honest with you, for a long time I didn't know what it meant and I didn't want to ask because I didn't want to look stupid. So I'm so glad that I finally figured it out, finally asked sometime ago, and I thought, well, if I don't know what it is, then the average Joe doesn't know what it is. Because it is kind of, I want to say, like more of an industry term. I think. 

Katie Hilliard [28:43 - 28:58]: So. It is. I just. Thank you so much for having me. It really is a more clinical term and I just appreciate the opportunity to be able to share about this and hopefully it'll help some seniors realize that maybe they have access to programs they didn't otherwise know. 

Darleen Mahoney [28:58 - 29:19]: Yeah, perfect. Perfect. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you joining us. And if you enjoyed this podcast and you learned something from it, please share with a friend or a loved one that you think will benefit from the information we share today. And we're also available anywhere you listen to podcasts such as Spotify, Apple Podcasts, GoodPods, or anywhere you enjoy your music or podcasts. Thanks for listening.