Fraud Watch: Reporting, Finding, Tracking-Be in the Know!

Buckle up as we deep dive into identifying , reporting and finding  where you can access the latest scams & frauds. We provide tips on how to report and  stay safe from the.  Scams  that are  rising and getting more complex than what we have ever experienced. 

We are joined by a knowledgeable expert,  Karen from AARP Florida, on the complex web of fraud prevention and the pivotal role of reporting scams in dismantling fraudulent activities. Listen as our insightful guest, as sheds light on the imperative need to shift the conversation around fraud, offer support to victims, and enhance public awareness. From romance scams leveraging AI technology to phishing tactics preying on emotional vulnerabilities, we explore various forms of fraud and how to shield yourself from falling victim.

Discover the valuable resources provided by AARP's Fraud Watch Network to combat & educate yourself on  international fraud syndicates. Arm yourself with knowledge, stay vigilant, and join the collective effort to combat fraud

SeniorLivingGuide.com Podcast sponsored by TransMed Care Long Distance Medical Transportation

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Transcript

Darleen Mahoney [00:00:18]:

And we are excited today to have Karen Murillo. She is associate state director of advocacy for AARP in Florida. She joined the AARP team in 2022. She was a, or she is a former senior protection team coordinator for the state attorney's general office, as well as someone who over a decade of experience, is a criminal prosecutor in Florida. I think that's really cool. And she is a, the resident expert today for today's conversation on fraud in the state of Florida. So I did want to go ahead and deep dive with you into, I'm going to call it, it sounds very salacious, the world of fraud scams and consumer protection. So I'm super thrilled to have you on the episode today.

Darleen Mahoney [00:01:08]:

So let's go ahead and figure out how we can help those in shedding the light on the pressing issue of fraud and how it impacts our 50 plus communities, specifically their individuals, families, communities and their caregivers. Thank you for joining us, Karen.

Karen [00:01:27]:

Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here.

Darleen Mahoney [00:01:30]:

Yeah, absolutely. We're excited to have you. So tell us a little bit about your insights and what inspired you to focus on advocacy specifically for older adults and what is your background dealing with fraud?

Karen [00:01:47]:

So I come to AARP with a background, as you mentioned, in criminal prosecution. That was really my entrance into fraud against seniors and fraud in general. I've handled crimes of exploitation, elder abuse, and kind of a myriad of crimes focusing and targeting on older adults here in Florida. And I kept getting really just frustrated with the lack of protections in some instances because fraudsters are always coming up with new ways to target and take advantage of older adults. I mean, anybody in general, but older adults in particular.

Darleen Mahoney [00:02:26]:

Yeah.

Karen [00:02:26]:

So I started working in advocacy to work on legislation and other policy here in Florida to help strengthen the protections that are available for older adults, as well as the consequences to those scammers when we catch them and the potential remedies that we have. If a fraud is kind of caught in the works, how do we stop the financial bleed before it's too late?

Darleen Mahoney [00:02:52]:

Yeah, I did want to ask you this question. Because they're seniors, because they're older, is there more of a consequence to those that are targeting and scamming this specific demographic than it would be if they were doing someone younger?

Karen [00:03:10]:

So in Florida and in many states nationally, there is a trend in having enhanced criminal penalties for somebody who targets an older adult in particular. Now, every state has their own kind of approach to this. Sometimes it has to be an older adult who has some vulnerability or as in Florida's case, we have a straight theft of a person 65 years of age or older becomes a higher felony with a higher penalty. So there are certainly protections in place, and we're always trying to make sure that we're strengthening those and that they are up to date because, as I mentioned, the scams are really evolving and we're trying to make sure that the law keeps up with it.

Darleen Mahoney [00:03:53]:

Absolutely. I love to hear that because I do feel like they are much more vulnerable to be targeted and scammed successfully just because of so many different issues. Sometimes when you're older, you're just more trusting, or sometimes you may have some cognitive issues which will definitely make you a target, and there should be a higher penalty for those that specifically go after. It's like almost going after children. It's somewhat the same, in my opinion, when you're targeting someone that's more vulnerable. So I love to hear that there is some differentiation on penalties or whatever the crime is related to. So I did want to ask you as well. So we love AARP.

Darleen Mahoney [00:04:33]:

AARP is such a great, it's really great for our seniors. It's a great resource for them. I was on a friend of mine's phone trying to find her something, and I saw that she had the AARP app on her phone. I'm like, yes, you have the AARP. So how is ARP protecting older adults from fraud, especially in the light of the sophistication we know AI is just going gangbusters right now, as well as other types of frauds.

Karen [00:05:02]:

Absolutely. If you don't mind, I'm gonna just go back to something you said just a moment ago. So you mentioned kind of the reason why these crimes are more egregious when they target older adults. Right. I think it's worth mentioning that for older adults, persons, whether it's 60 years of age or older or 65, there's a spectrum of capabilities and cognitive abilities and all of these different things. We have fully functional, capable 90 year olds, and we have adults who are much younger who may have some vulnerabilities. So in terms of really the most egregious part of this, besides targeting somebody with a vulnerability, it's really important to remember that these are people who are living in retirement age and may not have the ability to kind of overcome the financial loss of their retirement and investment accounts and all of these things that they planned on living their lives on for the rest of their lives. So that's certainly another reason that we really target these cases and make sure that we're protecting and going after the bad guys on this, protecting older adults, but really penalizing the conduct, that's perfect.

Darleen Mahoney [00:06:23]:

And that's a great explanation. And I never even thought of that about not being able to recoup that money because you can't continue to work, you can't get a raise, you can't get promoted. If you're retired and you're living, especially on a limited income and everything gets taken, you are really, you could be in real trouble.

Karen [00:06:41]:

Absolutely. Absolutely. So in response to your question about AARP and what we're doing, so AARP has a wealth of resources when it comes to fraud. And I should probably also mention that these are not focused only on older adults. These are free resources that are available to the public at large, regardless of age, because anybody at any age can be targeted by a scam. And our aarp.org fraudwatchNetwork is really the landing page where you can find a lot of these different resources. We have a scam tracker map that kind of shows you what scams have been reported in your area based off of zip code we have, you can sign up for biweekly watchdog alerts which tell you about trends and scams that we're seeing based off of what's being reported nationally and locally. We have this fun new personal technology resource center.

Karen [00:07:43]:

And the page in particular that I would direct you to is the possibilities perils of artificial intelligence. It's this new platform that we've kind of developed to go through both the pros and cons of artificial intelligence, because there are a lot of ways that this is going to enhance our, even in caregiving, this is going to enhance a lot of our capabilities in taking care of people. But obviously, we know that it can be misused for purposes of fraud as well. So there's information there about the different types of artificial intelligence to help people really approach it and get comfortable with the concept of AI, what it looks like, both the good, the bad, and the ugly, if you will. And one other resource that I'm really proud of for AARP's fraudwatch network is our words matter campaign. We are doing a lot to make sure that we get the word out there that we need to change how we talk about scams and how we talk about scam victims. You know, we have such common colloquialisms, like somebody fell for a crime or they were duped, and it really kind of places a blame or an ownership on the victim, whereas in any other type of crime, if we're talking about, you know, a robbery, for example, we're not looking at the victim and blaming them. We're looking at the culprit and their actions.

Karen [00:09:05]:

So we really want to make sure that we reframe how we're talking about this. And we really want to make sure we're encouraging victims to come forward when they have been targeted by a scam that they report and they don't fear the consequences, the shame, the embarrassment or other consequences of reporting.

Darleen Mahoney [00:09:24]:

Yeah, absolutely. I do feel like when you do shame, and this is, you're completely correct that this type of fraud, especially when it happens to seem seniors, a caregiver or family member, may get frustrated that they were, you know, taken in by the fraud itself. And it can absolutely distract people from reporting it because they don't want, you know, their son, their daughter or whoever to have a negative impact on that relationship. So that makes complete sense.

Karen [00:09:54]:

Absolutely. And, you know, the fraud watch network helpline actually has fraud specialists and counselors who are available to walk through fraud scenarios with both victims and victims family members. And I think that's a really important point to address because a fraud typically doesn't impact just the person who, who gives money or, you know, is defrauded. It typically impacts all of the people around them and in their orbit. And so making sure to kind of talk about this, normalize the discussion so that this isn't something that's based off of, oh, you know, somebody's going to think that I've kind of started losing it cognitively if I admit that I was defrauded. Really normalizing that discussion and making sure that family members know how to approach the conversation with empathy and just kind of walking through how to best deal with this when a loved one has been defrauded.

Darleen Mahoney [00:10:51]:

Yeah, absolutely. That's perfect. So what are some of the most prevalent types of frauds targeting seniors right now and other vulnerable populations?

Karen [00:11:01]:

So, you know, the trends that are happening nationally, there's a lot of overlap between what's happening for all age demographics and seniors in particularly, the FBI recently published a report on their top crimes from their Internet crime complaint center. So these are going to be all kinds of crimes that are, and frauds that are facilitated by Internet, which can also involve like, voiceover ip spoofing, phishing types of things. And phishing. And spoofing is actually one of the top national trends. Imposter scams, auto scams, sweepstakes scams. All of these are big in terms of phishing and spoofing and also other forms of contacting and defrauding. We also have personal data breaches being a really big issue, and that can happen in a lot of different ways, sometimes also facilitated by phishing or spoofing. So these different categories that I'm mentioning, they do have a lot of overlap and commonality.

Karen [00:12:07]:

We see a lot in the world of online shopping scams with non payment, non delivery issues. We're also seeing extortion scams, extortion issues that are originating. That's something that AI has also played a real part in. And investment scams. Now, for complainants over 60, I'll say that the top five scams that are listed by the FBI are tech support scams, personal data breaches, confidence or romance scams, those online non payment, non delivery scams, and investment scams. So those five categories in particular are the ones that the FBI has mentioned as being most reported within complainants who are 60 years of age or older.

Darleen Mahoney [00:12:54]:

Yeah. So one of the things I was thinking as you're going through that list, because I familiar with what some of those things are, but probably a lot of our listeners aren't. But I do also feel like AI is a contributor to almost every single one of those. And it's crazy to me because I don't even know if I knew what AI was like two years ago. It's just, it's just gotten so sophisticated in the last couple of years. It seems.

Karen [00:13:18]:

Absolutely, just like scams are constantly emerging. So is the technology that helps facilitate them. I mean, and honestly, so is our understanding of how to protect ourselves from fraud. I frequently give presentations around the community on fraud prevention, and one word of advice that I used to give was, hey, you know, biometric information tends to be pretty reliable. So if you're trying to do password managers and other things so that you don't get your accounts compromised or your bank account information compromised, biometric data, like your fingerprint, your facial recognition, tends to be very safe. Yes, that's still true, but now I've got the caveat of, hey, facial spoofing is something that AI is helping with. And so we know that the technology is catching up and making it more and more complicated, more and more difficult to prevent fraud from occurring. You know, when it, when we talk about these different types of scams and we talk about a common scam that I think a lot of people hear about, especially when it comes to imposter type of scenarios, is the grandparent scam, right? Somebody calls and says, you know, I've got your, your grandchild, they've been in an accident.

Karen [00:14:40]:

They're being held, and we need bail money, or they're in the hospital, and we need money for XYZ. And now with the voice spoofing technology, it is very feasible for them to, quote, unquote, put the grandchild on the phone to help kind of validate the situation. And it's very believable. So we can't believe what our eyes and ears are telling us, necessarily in these scenarios, which makes it really kind of scary.

Darleen Mahoney [00:15:12]:

Yeah, it is. And, you know, just getting back to something super basic, I do believe, like, in Vegas, they had a big Elvis concert, and it sold out. And clearly, it is not. I can't remember what it's called when they project his image and he does the concert. That's incredible technology. And I think it's really hard for a lot of us to wrap our heads around the capabilities of AI. I know for me that when I get calls and nobody speaks and I'm going, hello? Hello? It makes. And I don't know who it's from, it makes me very nervous that they could potentially be catching my voice for something.

Karen [00:15:51]:

Absolutely. But the Better Business Bureau put out a report recently that those scams of can you hear me? Trying to get you to say yes or just to get some voice recording is back. And we don't necessarily know how all of these things are being used. We are seeing some of the iterations of that, and I would definitely recommend not answering the phone. If you don't recognize the number or this is a call that's coming out of nowhere, you're really not anticipating it, because we want to try to protect ourselves as much as possible. But I'll say that many of these voice spoofing technologies are really coming from social media. I mean, we post videos and things all the time. And, Darlene, I mean, you have a podcast, so I know your voice is out there.

Darleen Mahoney [00:16:46]:

I'm double jeopardy.

Karen [00:16:48]:

So anytime we post our voice, anytime we post our face, any content that we put out there on the Internet, on the world wide web, could potentially get misused at some point. So it's always really important to be cognizant of what you're posting and how that could be used later on.

Darleen Mahoney [00:17:07]:

Oh, wow. I never even thought about social media. That is, I never thought about it. Holy cow. So, yeah, that's a lot. And people are posting more and more videos on social versus just pictures, and then you have the pictures along with it. So you have both available, and so many people have open profiles, so it's really? You know, that could be a game changer for sure. So I wanted to ask you, so how do fraudsters typically target their victims and how do they manipulate to deceive them?

Karen [00:17:38]:

So there are a lot of ways that a fraudster can target a victim. One of the things that I would say that people don't typically think of are lead lists. So scammers are actually selling contact information just like they do for identity theft and personal information. They're selling contact information on the dark web. And so they are getting these lists sometimes from people signing up for one of those sweepstakes that you see, hey, sign up for a free cruise. Just give us your contact information or other like freebie items getting you to sign up, and then that your information is out there on these lead lists. Now, what also helps kind of escalate somebody's chances of being targeted for a scam are if they are picking up the phone when they're getting these calls from unknown callers. So many of these scams that are perpetuated over the Internet and through these robo calls, they're doing it en masse.

Karen [00:18:46]:

It's not based off of just looking for that one person. They're sending out thousands and thousands and thousands of phone calls, text messages, emails to see who responds, who clicks. And if you click, if you respond, that makes it so much more likely that you're going to continue to be targeted by these scammers because they know that you're a live fish, if you will, which I hate using that expression, but it really does kind of convey the point. So that's certainly a big piece of this. Now, there are, I don't want to.

Darleen Mahoney [00:19:21]:

Interrupt you, but that what you just described is what you would call phishing. Correct.

Karen [00:19:27]:

So phishing is the email based tactic of sending a link or sending something to get somebody to take action. And typically that happens in a lot of different ways. But it can happen with compromised email accounts, it can happen with somebody who's using an email that looks like the real thing. But if you look carefully enough, it's not quite, there's a lot of different ways phishing happens. There's also something called smishing, which is SMS text message, where they're sending the links and other things via text message. So, you know, we've got all these different forms and the remembering the names that they're kind of silly. It's not really important to remember what it's called, just that there are all of these ways that people are targeting communication wise. One of the things that I also wanted to mention with respect to how fraudsters target their victims.

Karen [00:20:29]:

Some of the most insidious forms of fraud are those that involve relationship building. Sometimes they're called confidence fraud, romance scams. Maybe it'll be an investment scam, but there are a lot of different ways that these scams can develop. But they start with an online friendship or an online connection. And this can be from social media. This can be playing words with friends, and it turns into a conversation. This can be a dating website. There are so many different ways that people connect online.

Karen [00:21:03]:

And one of those that, you know, I think are really concerning that your listeners maybe want to know about, are like forums, like these caregiving forums, or if you grief forums. People are looking for scammers in particular are looking for people who are in a heightened emotional state, who are stressed out so that they can kind of manipulate and prey upon that. And they're always looking for a way to make that connection. So if they know that you are somebody who's a full time caregiver, they may claim to be a full time caregiver as well, so that they can make that relationship, that connection.

Darleen Mahoney [00:21:43]:

Yeah. I never even thought about the forums, and that's heartbreaking to me, because people utilize those because they need them. A lot of seniors, elderly people, don't have a lot of social connections. They have a state of loneliness, especially if they're particularly aging in place. And maybe they don't have a lot of people that are coming over, and they'll utilize those in order to make connections online. And to think that people are taking advantage of that, really, honestly, it just makes me mad. But I know that it is what it is. So how can people protect themselves and best protect their loved ones from falling to these frauds and the online scams and that type of thing?

Karen [00:22:25]:

So, you know, you bring up a really good point about how social connection has really evolved over time, right? Especially since the pandemic we've moved to this. This need to have a virtual connection with others. I mean, it's something that is essential, especially for somebody who is housebound, bedbound in a medical condition that really prevents them from getting out and socializing in person. And so I would say that I don't want to cause everybody to suddenly run away from all of these social media and other online socializing forums because they serve a purpose. Really. The point of what I hope people will take away from this, what I hope your listeners will take away from this is it's so important to be mindful of what you are sharing in these relationships, in these communications, and how much you're giving to this. So having a conversation with somebody in a forum and connecting over grief for loss of a loved one, that's completely fine. There's nothing nefarious or wrong about that.

Karen [00:23:34]:

It's when that person tries to take you to a different messaging platform, when they start asking you for certain details that would really give more insight into your identity. Maybe even questions that seem kind of innocuous, like, oh, where'd you go to high school? What was your high school's mascot? Those are weird questions, but those also are security questions to get into your bank account. So you have to think about all of the potential motivations and just be very vigilant in where you're communicating, how you're communicating. And the moment that somebody poses that ask, when they start asking for whether it's help financially or it's, you know, they need information from you or whether they want to help you with investing, you know, these different scams come in a lot of different ways. But when they ask for that, your guard should be up. That's when you should really be seeing the red flags and saying, wait a second.

Darleen Mahoney [00:24:36]:

Absolutely. So I was thinking, if someone is targeted or they've fallen victim, what resources and support are is there out there for those folks?

Karen [00:24:48]:

So one of the reasons I came to AARP in particular is because I was so impressed with our fraud watch network and the fraud helpline. So we have a helpline that connects victims and family members of victims with a ton of different resources, including counseling. And it helps them with reporting. It walks. The fraud specialist will walk victims and their family members through all of the steps they need to take in the aftermath of a fraud. They're also available to talk to somebody. If somebody wants to say, you know, this sounds like a scam, but let me ask somebody to validate or verify if that's a scam. So all of these different resources that are available through the fraudwatch network helpline, I think, are great starting points because even if they are not the resource that you end up with, they can connect you to the one that is.

Karen [00:25:44]:

And for victims of these confidence scams and other forms of scams, we talked about the shame, and we talked about the kind of the things that prevent people from coming forward. Those can also be the things that prevent people from emotionally and psychologically recovering in the aftermath of one of these crimes. Because keep in mind, if you have a family member who has ever gone through this, you know that this is a. You want to say this is not a real relationship. This is not a real person, but it is a real relationship to the people who are involved. And so these have psychologically lasting impact. And so I'm really proud of the work that the fraud Watch network helpline does and our counseling programs, through rest offer for victims and victims family members.

Darleen Mahoney [00:26:35]:

Yeah, I really appreciate that. I'm super excited that you guys have this fraud watch network. And we'll include that link also into the podcast. So with the mention of the individuals that you call it relationship scam, is that what you called it?

Karen [00:26:53]:

Yeah. Confidence or romance or relationship scams? All of these. All of these work.

Darleen Mahoney [00:26:59]:

Yeah. And I think for. For me, when I hear that it is much harder to convince someone that has had a relationship that, you know, online or what have you, especially if they're vulnerable widows, it's, you know, or widowers. I think it's really hard for them because they've just lost someone that they maybe been married to for like 50 years, and they're really looking for companionship. They're looking for love. They're looking to fulfill a need. And then that that person's, or bought or whatever it is, is fulfilling that need. And sometimes I think they really can't wrap their head around the fact that this wasn't real.

Karen [00:27:37]:

It's so true. I think that there are a lot of different psychological interpretations as to why this is the case, but I think all of us can really understand the need for connection. And once you have that connection, how difficult it is to lose that, especially if you've just suffered a major loss in your own personal life, the loss of a spouse, the loss of anybody very close to you, you are hanging on to all of those connections that you have. And, you know, one other thing that I think makes it really difficult sometimes is the investment that people put into this. Now, that's the financial investment, it's the emotional investment. But you've poured so much of your time, your resources and energy into this relationship, you know, coming to terms with the fact that this is not a legitimate relationship, that the person on the other end of this has malicious purposes. It's a very difficult thing to come to terms with and recognize kind of the consequences of all of that.

Darleen Mahoney [00:28:45]:

Yeah, it's heartbreaking. And I do think that if you're a daughter or son or family member or caregiver, and you realize that someone that you love that may be recently widowed or divorced, and they're older and they have. They start a romance. Romance conversation or romance, relationship, whatever you want to call it online, definitely. I think it's okay to jump in there and say, hey, have you had a, you know, a video call with him? Have you done any of these things that kind of will constitute the reality or the realism of that specific relationship over something that's not?

Karen [00:29:23]:

I'm really glad that you brought up the video call because that's another one of those things that, like I said, AI and all of these technologies, it's changing. What our advice is for fraud prevention. I have always said, you know, for anybody who's involved in a relationship online, and please understand, this doesn't have to be romantic. It can be a friendship, it can be completely plutonic. It can be somebody who wants to mentor somebody. So any form of relationship can be abused online. But now, thanks to AI, thanks to the video spoofing that exists, the facial spoofing that exists, if you go and google this, you'll see that scammers are actually posting tutorials on how to fake a video and make it look like the person you're talking to is somebody different than who you actually are on the line with. And, you know, I would say that some of the signs like that the video might be lagging or there might be some connection issues, those are helpful things to point out, but that's going to be addressed with technology as it emerges and evolves.

Karen [00:30:35]:

Right? So it's not just seeing as believing, it's being really careful about. Even if you do meet this person face to face, if you will, virtually keeping your guard up and not giving information that could potentially jeopardize you, not giving photos that could potentially be used against you, and not giving money away that you can't afford to lose.

Darleen Mahoney [00:31:01]:

Absolutely. Those are perfect tips right there in a nutshell. I did want to ask you. So I know that the fraud network, does it collaborate with law enforcement agencies? You kind of feel like it would need to, to be really super effective. And what other partners do you work with?

Karen [00:31:19]:

So the fraudwatch network absolutely collaborates with law enforcement and regulatory agencies like the FTC and FBI. We have a lot of different collaborations and projects that we work on with these different organizations and counterparts. The Fraud Watch Network helpline, for example, can help victims and their family members connect to the right law enforcement agency and place to report a fraud or get assistance with a fraud if they have been targeted. We also compile information based off of these relationships and the campaign I mentioned earlier, the words matter. That's a perfect example of how the research that we get from all of these different sources, from FINRA, from FTC, from FBI, we work together and show how we can learn from this and grow from this and prevent fraud based off of what we're seeing in trends nationwide. So we work collaboratively. We help with connecting victims to law enforcement for reporting purposes. But we especially also look at this from a what can we learn from the frauds that we're seeing? How can we collaboratively go after this to prevent future crimes from occurring? And that's why the scam tracker map that I mentioned, the biweekly fraud watch alerts, those are things that we compile and get from law enforcement partners as well as other individuals who utilize the AARP fraud watch network.

Darleen Mahoney [00:32:58]:

So I love the notifications. I think even if you're not involved in a fraud or, you know, have been a victim of it or you're concerned about it so much, I do think it's something to get that notification. I think, honestly, anyone could, could get that notification and be happy because I think it's something that you have to watch out for.

Karen [00:33:19]:

Absolutely. We've talked about several different types of scams that have evolved even during the course of this conversation. And there are so many other ways that, you know, that these scams are having new iterations. So it's difficult to pinpoint that something is a scam. The grandparents scam is a perfect example. It is evolving and has a lot of different versions now, including having an insurance agent calling about a car accident and helping you with a claim number. I mean, there are so many ways that fraudsters are finding to be convincing. And when a scam has become well known, they switch their tactics, they get creative.

Daleen Mahoney [00:34:01]:

So you have to stay one step ahead of them.

Karen [00:34:04]:

Yeah, I mean, we have to stay vigilant at all times. Like I said, you can't always believe what you see, what you hear. Sometimes you just have to be a bit skeptical. And I know that that's not exactly what the optimist in me wants to say, but it is the safest practice to be skeptical of new relationships, especially online. And anybody asking for information or asking for help with money, these are things you have to be. Your guard should be up for.

Darleen Mahoney [00:34:37]:

Yeah. I think consistently educating yourself and the knowledge that comes with it is going to be one of the biggest protectors. If you're staying consistent with it, you are 100% correct.

Karen [00:34:50]:

Actually, there's research out there that shows that people who expose themselves to fraud education materials who are staying alert as to different types of fraud, even if they are targeted by a different form of fraud, they are more likely to recognize and not participate in a scam. Because I think that hearing about all of the ways that we can be defrauded, like I said, it kind of puts our guard up. It makes us skeptical of all scenarios where somebody could be taking advantage of us.

Darleen Mahoney [00:35:21]:

Absolutely. So I did want to ask you, are there specific steps or strategies that ARP uses to implement and educate and empower? Because we need the empowerment individuals to recognize, report, and recover from fraud. And how can they access these resources? What is that website link? Because I know we've been talking about the fraud Watch network.

Karen [00:35:43]:

The Fraud Watch Network is aarp.org fraud Watch Network all spelled out? And yes, we have. Through our helpline, we can help navigate the resources that are available. We can connect victims and victims family members with the appropriate agencies that can provide assistance, that can investigate. You know, you ask about the reimbursement or restitution, that kind of becomes a challenging process and one that I think we're all still working on globally. AARP in particular has policy that we are pushing across the US to try to have funds that are set up to assist victims of fraud so that if we can't recover the money from the fraudster, that there's another place that victims can go to if they need that emergency assistance. It is not an easy solution. And in most cases, once the money has left the victim's account, it's gone. Even if we track down the fraudster down the line, more than likely that money has been spent, that money has moved on to another account and is no longer accessible.

Karen [00:36:56]:

So that is one of the tricky parts of assisting victims that we're still working on actively from both a policy and large picture perspective, as well as in connecting them with the right resources, with law enforcement agencies, prosecution agencies that can help with restitution, potentially, yeah.

Darleen Mahoney [00:37:19]:

And some of it, or a lot of it, or maybe correct me, because I may be completely wrong, is not necessarily inside the US. It would be international fraud is happening as well. Yeah.

Karen [00:37:31]:

So we see a lot of different, a lot of different locations where frauds are occurring. In fact, the FBI's recent report that they put out, they actually go through the countries where most of these scams are originating. It's a long list. Keep in mind that some of these scammers are located here in the US. Some of them have been identified even across the border in Canada and in Mexico. We also have, like I said, many foreign fraudsters. We have scammers who are located in call centers in India and in China. We've seen videos of these different call centers and how they're being used.

Karen [00:38:15]:

So it sometimes can make people reluctant to report because they think, you know, this is somebody all the way over on the other side of the world, nobody's going to do anything about it. And the one thing I would say to anybody who has that thought process is if you look up fraud and international fraud rings, the United States Attorney's office. United States Attorney's office, sorry about that, is actively going after these cases. They take the reports that are filed and they look for common threads and common suspects. And when they see a large volume of reports and a large volume of money that is being lost to the same source, they are going after and taking those guys down. So it's always worth reporting. And you never know in terms of if there is a recovery, then you could be reimbursed after all of this.

Darleen Mahoney [00:39:09]:

I love hearing that because you always wonder, you know, if it's international, are they going to be harder to catch? Are they working with, you know, our country in efforts to minimize what's happening? So I love that you shared that, and I hope our listeners really appreciate that as well because that made me happy. So. So I did want to ask you, I know we're getting ready to wrap up the podcast. So looking forward, looking ahead, what do you see as the most pressing challenges with the ongoing battle against fraud? And how can individuals work together to address them effectively?

Karen [00:39:48]:

So I think one of the biggest ones I've mentioned a couple of times already is the discussion piece around how we talk about fraud. Changing the way that we discuss it changes the outcome overall. It changes whether victims feel comfortable enough to report. It changes how victims feel that they're treated when they have reported and come forward. And I think it also changes kind of the paradigm of how everyone looks at these scams, because this is a new world that we're living in and law enforcement is working to catch up with where all of these frauds are. Some of these are a little bit harder to contextualize and really understand. But if we change the way that we discuss it, we make this a, we take away the stigma of it, and we make this something that law enforcement and others can approach without saying, I can't believe anybody would fall for that. No, we know exactly who is to blame.

Karen [00:40:48]:

It's the scammer, and we know how convincing they are, especially with the technology. You know, we have a resource through AARP, the words matter page and I will make sure to share that specific URL with you. But we have a resource, a one page resource that you can print out. And it's really, I think it's really clever. It says, you know, here's what we would normally say. Instead of saying this, try rephrasing it like this. You know, one of the examples is, how could you fall for that? Didn't you see the flags? Instead of saying, you know, why didn't you see what was happening? Point out the fact that this isn't their fault, that they are the victim of a crime, they've experienced a crime, and that, you know, as a result, we need to be going after the scammer, not blaming the victim. So that's one of the biggest resources that I think will make a difference in how we address scams.

Karen [00:41:51]:

We know that scams are underreported. So actually understanding the volume of scams is important for a lot of reasons. I mentioned the us attorney's office, FBI, all of these other federal resources and agencies. They're going after these big time scammers. We only know that they're happening if people are reporting it. And so even if you have not put money into this scam, even if you have not been defrauded of your money, but you find out that you have participated or seen a scam reporting, that helps law enforcement stay ahead, it helps them shut it down. It helps them go after the bad guys. And I guess I'd say that aside from how we talk about it, encouraging people to report as much as possible is the other big thing that we need to do.

Karen [00:42:45]:

We need to, even if it's time consuming, and I know it is, it actually does make a difference in the long run. And it helps us take down these criminals. It helps us identify trends so we can notify others what's happening. So how we talk about scams and making sure we report scams are two of the biggest things that I think we can change, and I hope we do change going forward.

Darrleen Mahoney [00:43:10]:

Yeah. In a nutshell, I kind of feel like if you report it, you could actually be saving another person from getting scammed. And if you don't, if you don't report it, then there's not the radar on it as much as there would be if you actually reported it.

Karen [00:43:26]:

Absolutely. I think, you know, victims of scams, there's a, there's a tendency to feel alone and isolated and, you know, blaming yourself. But if you think about it, these scammers have scripts. They're going after people in volume. You're not alone. This does happen all the time, and it's not something that you should be ashamed of. It's something that, you know, this has been perpetrated against you. So come forward, because you never know how many other people are also in the midst of this same type of scenario.

Karen [00:44:01]:

Who you can help.

Darleen Mahoney [00:44:02]:

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for joining us today, Karen. This was such an insightful conversation, and I love all the work that AARP is doing to educate and provide different resources on the subject of fraud and scams and the world today. So I definitely appreciate you joining us today.

Karen [00:44:22]:

Not a problem. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Darleen Mahoney [00:44:26]:

Absolutely. And if you enjoyed this podcast, you can find us anywhere. You listen to music or podcasts such as Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon good pods, even Alexa.